From: Summers,AD <A.D.Summers@lse.ac.uk>
To: Andrew Burrows <andrew.burrows@law.ox.ac.uk>
Robert Stevens <robert.stevens@law.ox.ac.uk>
obligations@uwo.ca
Date: 28/06/2017 17:25:46 UTC
Subject: RE: New Flamenco

Just on the specific point raised by Andy Burrows about factual causation:

 

As I understand it, Lord Clarke’s point at [22] and [32] is that the owners could (i.e. would have been entitled to) have sold the vessel at any time during the charterparty. Lord Clarke makes this point to support his argument that the owners’ decision whether or not to sell the vessel was independent of (not caused by) the breach of contract.

 

By contrast, the test of factual causation to which Rob and I were referring, requires the court to ask what would (not could) have happened but for the breach. There is nothing in any of the arbitrator’s findings to suggest that the owners would have sold the vessel, had it not been for the early repudiation of the charterparty.

 

So I think that this point about the application of factual causation in The New Flamenco stands. When Lord Clarke talks about causation in his judgment, he must be referring to a concept other than but-for.

 

 

 

From: Andrew Burrows [mailto:andrew.burrows@law.ox.ac.uk]
Sent: 28 June 2017 17:54
To: Robert Stevens <robert.stevens@law.ox.ac.uk>; obligations@uwo.ca
Subject: RE: New Flamenco

 

Like Rob, I think we need to be clear which element of causation (of benefit) we are talking about. The difficulty I am having with the decision is in being sure what the 'factual causation' position (ie the application of the 'but for' test) was on the facts of the case. Although Rob and Andy Summers have said that it was clear that, but for the repudiatory breach by the charterers, the owners would not have sold the vessel (at its high market value), that may be contradicted by Lord Clarke's point (referred to twice at paras 22 and 32 of his judgment) that the owners might have sold the vessel even if there had been no repudiatory breach. That is, irrespective of the breach, they might have sold the vessel with an ongoing charterparty. If factual causation is not satisfied, then plainly one ignores the sale of the vessel and the decision is clearly correct. But if, on the other hand, factual causation is satisfied (ie the ship would not have been sold but for the breach), I find the decision much more difficult to justify. In particular, it is hard to see that the sale of the ship would then be too indirectly related to the breach  (as with eg the shares in the Lavarack case); and I find it difficult to see any convincing analogy to the well-known exceptions where one ignores compensating benefits (insurance proceeds and benevolence).

On a separate and very sad note, members of this list may not have seen (there is an announcement on the Supreme Court's website) the very sad and shocking news that Lord Toulson died yesterday.     

Best wishes,

Andy

 

Professor Andrew Burrows QC (Hon), FBA, DCL

Professor of the Law of England,

All Souls College,

Oxford.      


From: David Cheifetz [dcheifetz@gmail.com]
Sent: 28 June 2017 16:57
To: Robert Stevens
Cc: obligations@uwo.ca
Subject: Re: New Flamenco

Dear ​Rob,

 

"Legal" causation only ever reduces the relevant range of "causes", it doesn't increase it. Indeed, how could it?​"

 

Cook v Lewis,

Summers v Tice 

 

are your answer to how could it.

 


Best,

 

David

 

 

 

 

 

On 28 June 2017 at 12:10, Robert Stevens <robert.stevens@law.ox.ac.uk> wrote:

"Legal" causation only ever reduces the relevant range of "causes", it doesn't increase it. Indeed, how could it?




 

--

 

 

David